158. How to Use a Framework to Optimize Decision Making with the Author of “Choose Better” Dr. Timothy Yen

We've got Dr. Timothy Youn with us today. He

has he is a clinical psychologist and in the San

Francisco Bay Area, and has a practice of his own and then but

he topic here today in our conversation today will be

around making good decisions. His book is choose better, the

optimal decision making framework. Dr. Tim yen, Welcome

to Beyond adversity. Thank you so much, Brad for having me.

Thank you for being on the on beyond the diversity today I've

been looking through your materials and your your book

choose better. It's just as a raw alignment with the needs

folks who listen to beyond adversity, who are kind of

seeking tips and tracks and advice or a pathway to get them

beyond being stuck in whatever adverse conditions they end to

find a way out. And you offer some advice, not only for your

medic from your clinical background, but also from your

life. And I guess I'd like to if you will just unpack how you

ended up going into clinical psychology in the first place.

And maybe what was maybe some event or adverse condition that

you may have had to face in your life to get to where you're at

now.

All right, where do I start? So being a psychologist

actually wasn't my original plan, they there's a definitely

a faith component to your podcast, I am able to overtly

say that there's definitely a divine kind of hand through my

life story. Originally, I wanted to be a broadcast journalists.

So it's kind of funny, because now we're doing podcasts, which

is kind of the next best thing if you want to say it that way.

I guess the adversity that happened was my father was a

businessman, his business did not do very well. Let's just say

that this was about the time that I was applying for college,

there wasn't any money, I think, for me to go to college, or

whatever reason, signing up for the military made sense to me at

the time, I was like, hey, I want Uncle Sam to pay for my

college tuition. I went to enlist. And turns out, you can't

be a journalist in the army if you're colorblind. So that's a

whole different story. But I find I'm severely colorblind,

the medical examination process finding out Oh, the job that I

wanted to go for is no longer available to me because of this

handicap, if you want to call it that. And then there weren't

that many choices left. Apparently, there's a lot of

occupations in the military that need color vision. Who knew? So

I was really left with some not so exciting prospects, like

petroleum engineer, some some very different from journalism

type of work, one of the few jobs left over at the time of

interests was mental health. So that's kind of what got my

journey started was mental health was the only thing I was

interested with what was left over. And there wasn't even a

position open for me at the time. And I essentially somewhat

low key threatened the recruiter and said, Hey, if you don't give

me the mental health position, then I quit. Right? I'm not

going to enlist. And of course, recruiter trying to make us

quit, I'm sure he's like, No, no, no, like, you've gone

through 99% of the process, I am not losing you. Alright, I'm

gonna call Washington DC, we're going to make this happen. And

that's how I became a mental health specialist in the

military. Fast forward many years, it was something that I

found really meaningful, and I decided to pursue my graduate

degree. So I can be equipped to help as many people as I can,

oh, that

is awesome. And so you pushed through this barrier

that was there in the inner in the military. Prior to that,

with whatever the situation was at home regarding the business,

not working out so well with your with your father. So you

made some progress and push through and then you emerge now

and you have your own your own practice. I take it and you've

you went to college and got your clinical training and a degree

in psychology and and here you are, you've put out thanks. So

tell me a little bit now about what in this whole process and

what then motivated you about this whole area of decision

making? You know, the title of your book is choosing choose

better, the ultimate decision framework. So you had to make

some decisions yourself. And now you're helping others. What What

led you to, to want to write this book here town?

Yeah. So long story short, I met with a friend who

is a high exec CEO, actually are VP of a tech company in Taiwan,

and we had dinner. And I asked her the question, hey, as a

consultant because I do some consulting work, executive

coaching type work. So I asked her, Hey, like, what can I bring

to the table to really help your company? So the idea actually

came from her. She said, help my people think better, right, like

critical thinking skills because there's so much pressure a

deadline multiple professionals, especially teas that have

conflicting self interest in terms of how things should go.

So she asked me, is there a way that you can help my people

think better choose better. And so that got my, my wheels

turning as to what I can do to support her. And then I fall

back on my clinical work thought back on all the clients that I

work with. And it really kind of boiled down to decision making,

how do people make decisions depending on where they end up?

It's usually a chain of decisions for for better or for

worse. And so I just really contemplated on what's been

working with my work with clients. And it really boiled

down to some of these major pillars of decision making.

So if the emphasis was and your the question posed

to you was, help my company help my people help myself think

better, to make better decisions. So that meant the

question was what the problem was that they were not thinking

there was a lack of clarity or lack of decision making, and

somehow being stuck would have would be the terminology I might

use. So this is an issue then in the corporate world. It's also

is what I'm taking you you found out. And if you're dealing with

clients in psychology, you find that people are stuck by their

own personal lives and whatever situation is a divorce or health

related issue, or depression or, you know, being a debt or

whatever it is, they get stuck. So what do you find the out

there? What keeps?

Here's my question for you. If this if this video was

head came to you, what keeps people stuck, whether it's on a

corporate thing where their bottom line is, you know, being

corporately successful financially, or in people's

personalized, what type of things keep people stuck, so

many things. But the big thing, if I were to boil it down, is

some level of fear, right, some some level of fear, or anxiety

around failure, about making the wrong choice, and whatever

devastating consequences that may lead. And so there is this

illusion that if people don't choose at all, somehow they

bypass the potential risk or pain that comes from making the

wrong choice. We live in a society where I would say for

better, but sometimes, for worse, we have so much access to

knowledge. I mean, at our fingertips, you just Google

something, you can learn about so many different things. And

you realize there's just so much options out there. And that

somewhat perpetuates the fear that maybe if I choose this,

that may not be the best choice for me. So it does get

convoluted in our decision making process, because people

are trying to sift through a lot of pieces of information. And

the framework that I offer in my book is focused on the right

piece of that information, as opposed to just drinking from a

fire hydrant and having tons of information. And not really

knowing how to sort through that.

You hit on a rookie thing there I think, Tim, which

is focused on the right information, because avoidance,

distraction, denial, they are a huge part of our of our social

framework right now, aren't they just part of what goes on?

There's so much de luge of everything else, that sometimes

people get stuck in that distraction and avoidance. Do

you agree with that?

Absolutely. And and I would also say being stuck is

one posture. But for some people, they go the other

direction, which is they don't really think through their

decision, and they just impulsively on a whim on some

sort of emotion are just on one piece of information, they make

a decision, that also becomes regrettable.

Yeah. Our reaction to whatever these current

stimuli is they just kind of react to the stimuli that is

there. So So what do you think using your book as a frame your

talk about a framework of how to make decisions here? What are

some of these things that do you know, the actions, the bold

actions, or whatever it is that people take that you teach,

then, like your friend in Taiwan, or others, how do you

teach? What are some of the first steps to take to get this

focus this flow, that you can kind of narrow down the scope of

what you need to do to make some progress?

So with my background and clinical psychology, we

cannot escape the topic of emotions. So that's actually the

first piece of the equation is understanding. How do you feel

about this adversity? What what kind of feelings come up, but to

take it one step deeper? Which is what are my emotions, trying

to tell me What is the function behind this emotion? One example

I use a lot is anger. Like when we feel angry, oftentimes people

are like, Oh, I just don't want to feel this way, or I just need

the anger to go away. But in fact, our emotions are our

friends, as I would like to say, because our emotions are trying

to tell us something really important. Because if we didn't

care about something that we were dealing with, you probably

wouldn't feel much of anything at all right? So emotions is the

first thing that I have people listen to, and be aware of,

because it hits your brain at about 1/10 of a second, it hits

you so fast, we are best not to ignore our emotions. And so

whatever adversity that they may be facing, there's going to be

certain kinds of emotions, it could be fear, anxiety, anger,

sadness, whatever the emotion may be. That's probably the

first clue is understanding what those emotions are trying to

tell me. It gives you some really important data points. Do

you

have give people any direction or any guides on

how to identify and properly to understand the emotion at hand,

because some people you know, have an angry emotion and want

to lash out and so on. reacted, maybe not in a destructive way.

But give us some sensibility about how to identify and

properly understand emotions so we can do something constructive

with them.

Yeah, so first and foremost, we need to understand

what each emotion means. And that's something that most

people don't teach. We just feel a lot of different things. But

there's always a function behind the feeling. And so I draw from

Dr. Paul Ekman, his work, he's like the guru of emotions. And

each emotion he discovered, I want to say, seven universal

emotions, like across culture that we experienced as human

beings. And each one actually serves a purpose. And when you

understand the purpose of that emotion, then you begin asking

the right questions. For example, anger, anger is an

emotion that comes up for us when we feel like something is

unfair, or unjust, but it's actually a justice, emotion, we

get angry when we feel like hey, something's not right. And it

should not be this way. Now, if you know that, that's what anger

is triggering, then you start asking the question, what about

this situation? Do I feel is unjust? And that starts giving

you language real quick to understanding what is the

problem for me, right? I'm not saying that it's objective Lee

true, like the person that is arguing with you may not see

that as an injustice. But at least you can have some language

around why you're feeling the way that you do. And my book

kind of breaks it down a little bit each emotion and kind of

what each of them mean for common speed. So people can

begin to understand what this is all about,

as you have some identifiers that helps you to

understand better the emotions, so you can relate to them

personally, and how you relate to those interpersonally. Okay,

great. That's right. But tell us what, what we're talking about

here. If we're talking about a process of change, to decide to

cut off from whatever one factor or one track is in your life to

a different one, then we're talking about life change, we're

talking about transformation. And I want to talk about a

spiritual element for a second, I know there's a faith based

element, what you teach here, once you're about what do you

think about how do you integrate some sort of a spiritual power

or source greater than yourself, that would come into play into

your process of decision making? So some a little bit about

power, spirituality and thing along that line?

Yes. So if you have some sort of spirituality or

faith pace, higher power, as you mentioned, in that there are

certain values that the higher power God if you want to call

it, call him or her that right is essential to part of your

decision making. If we're going to use let's say, a Christian

point of view, right, then we, we know that there are certain

inherent values that God hears right in his word in the lives

of his people. That's also one of them. could be as simple as

our worth, right? Like, like, where does our worth come from?

If we're going to get a little bit theological right, then then

people's worth right is is central on the fact that the

person or the being who is the creator of all things, God is

able to define worth because he's the one who creates all

things. So from God's standpoint, people are

intrinsically worthy and valuable simply because of So

that's it. If we take that value that people, myself, the people

that I interact with, are intrinsically valuable, then

what does that mean? Then there's kind of a shift that

happens, because then our worth is not found in performance, or

how we do things up our net worth, or a lot of the things

that the world measures worth in people, it shifts because now

we're saying, Hey, we're starting from a place of

intrinsic worth, then the way that we go about doing things is

a kind of an overflow of who we are, rather than trying to prove

something to someone else, that we are worthy or valuable of

their time. And so so these are the values, which is part of the

framework that I've developed is really understanding what are

the values, what are the things that truly matter to you that

make life meaningful, when you have a higher power, it

redefines our values, and that in turn, redirects or realigns

the way that we make decisions,

your values have to come from somewhere in my

opinion, they, you know, it is it, they your values, either

Maybe it comes from how you are raised and your moral values and

your, your nuclear family that you grew up at, or maybe they

are some valid educational element or, or something to do

with, maybe you read or you were influenced by some teacher,

those are all powerful elements there. But what you're saying is

the values have to be intrinsically a part of us. And

one place. And I believe it's a very important place to draw

upon that power, is from the spiritual development piece that

comes into play here. And it's hard just to come is hard, it's

just to come to that place of your own accord, I believe you

have to come to it by a different place that comes into

your life. And that's, you mentioned a Christian worldview,

and there's others as well. But we can talk about, you know,

drawing on a higher power to help this decision making

process to give you those values. Otherwise, you're just

floundering, you know, you're just kind of floundering there.

Let's go, let's go back into the emotions. Again, here for just a

minute here. Tim, you spoke about, you know, kind of the

emotions that you have to identify anger and such, let's

talk about the importance in decision making of other people

or emotional or loving or caring relationships, and how the power

that they bring into your life. And sometimes the emotion of a,

someone who cares for you can, you know, be a, a boundary on us

or some sort, but also that sometimes it can be freeing, I'd

like for you to talk about the power or the importance of

loving relationships in this decision making process good,

bad or otherwise, talk to me about that a

little bit. My hope is, it's mutual, loving relationship

is mutual, you love them. They love you. And it's kind of from

that context. But when we talk about values again, the reality

is we don't live in isolation or in a vacuum, we live with other

people. And so when we do make decisions, we we don't want to

be completely selfish in making a decision that only benefits me

or benefits myself. But we do want to ask those questions

about what to other people value in this situation. And I believe

that's the loving thing to do. It kind of reminds me of the

golden rule, right? Do unto others as you would like it to

be done to you. But then I've been told that there is a

platinum rule, which is above the golden rule, which is Do

unto others as they would like things to be done. And, and that

kind of turns the idea around a little bit because the example I

use is my dad really likes spicy food, which is true, and I don't

particularly like spicy food. But imagine that my dad just

really insisted on cooking Chinese food and serving it to

me. I mean, after all, he loves it, right? Like, that's his jam.

He loves spicy food. But I don't know if I would receive that as

very lovey. Right, because I don't value that like I don't in

fact, I really don't like spicy food. So that would be kind of

offensive almost right after I've communicated Hey, Dad,

like, this isn't really my type of food. Right? So

he says what you just said the communication

piece. You have to be loving enough to say to Dad, dad, yes.

Don't do that. Because if you don't know that, then he thinks

it's a loving act to cook up spicy food for you. So this

community exactly communication comes into play here in

regarding this loving relationship in our decision

making, doesn't it?

It does. And in a weird way, it's a, it's kind of shame

on you if you don't communicate, because people aren't psychic,

right? People can't read your mind. Now, if someone has a

very, like rigid worldview or preference, and they keep

pushing it on you, even though you have communicate to them

that, hey, that's not very loving, I don't want to receive

that as loving, then that's when the boundaries come in. And we

say, hey, look, I know your intentions may be good. But

after communicating to you that that's not something I

appreciate, you still insist on doing it, then I'm afraid we

cannot interact in this kind of way, until you're able to

respect my wishes. So, so yes, all that to say right, the

values of others is very important to understand, in

order to be in a loving relationship.

And yet, if we're going to make optimal, optimal

decision making, it is very important to make it not in a

vacuum not on your own, you need to make it somehow in

relationship with others. I know, you as a psychologist,

people often won't, you know, ask you to be that other voice

to speak into their life to help them make a decision. And

sometimes if you're making a decision regarding any life

changing event, marriage, divorce, going off to college,

going to grad school, where to have surgery or not you it is

important to bring into play the advice sometimes the consent,

sometimes that's the reaction, reflection of other people who

care about you say something about that.

Yes, the key word is consider, right, I think it's

important to at least consider what the people who love you

think about your decision and having a checkpoint, having some

level of, again, consideration for what they may think or feel.

Now it again, goes back to your own values again, and saying,

hey, what matters to me, may or may not align with what matters

to other people. So that's where the critical thinking comes into

play. Like how important really, is it to make this decision?

After considering the fact that maybe the people who love you

have a differing opinion, my hope is, we have a open mind and

open heart to consider what they have to say, because they do you

love you, right, and they have your best interests in mind.

Hopefully, if they don't, for whatever reason, that's just

another piece of the puzzle to consider. But I least love them

enough to listen and consider what they have to say.

But ultimately, it is your decision. And you have

to live with that, you know, the accolades or the consequences of

that. So let's talk for a minute about the actual process the

cognitive application of your process here. Because it is when

you say a framework. In your book, you say it's a framework

that means that there is a process here there is things

that you can do, you know, ABCD, whatever it is like to tell us

more about that in terms of what are the what is the actual

framework? What is the process? What are the disciplines? What

are the habits? What are the change of behaviors that you

advocate here, that people do in order to make, as you say, to

choose better to make good decisions,

but a framework, if you want to use an analogy, it's

similar to what pilots use before they take off on their

plane. If you think about a pilot's are pretty smart people

I would say to to become a pilot, and there are sometimes

hundreds of people. Their lives are in this pilots pants,

depending on sure if you landed the plane well or not. And for

someone as smart as a pilot, they have a checklist of things

that they review. It's almost like a protocol to make sure

that everything is as it should be. The brakes work. The lights

work that the cockpit Control Panel works like there's just

literally a checklist of things that seem like no brainers like

no brainer things that if you've been doing it for 20 years, you

would kind of know, but they are required to go through this

checklist anyways, because they don't they can't afford to make

a mistake. With this with the safety protocol. If a pilot uses

a checklist to make sure that they have their bases covered.

Why don't we do that for the importance decisions in our

lives. Why do we leave it up to chance? Right? Or why do we

leave it up to just kind of how we feel. So that's really brain

work is a protocol, a checklist of sorts for people to go

through before they arrive at their optimal decision. So let

me review quickly kind of what that framework looks like. And

we actually reviewed three of the four, just in our

conversation, naturally, we actually hit three of the four

boxes. Okay, box number one is your emotions. So the question

you ask yourself before you make any decision is, what feelings

are coming up for me? And what do they mean? Right? What are

they trying to tell me? The second part of the framework,

right is values of self. So understanding, okay, in this

situation, what truly matters to me? What what kind of values

character traits that do I really want to exercise or

exemplify? Making sure that that's part of my decision.

pillar number three, right is values of others. So the people

that are involved in my decision, what do they care

about? I want to consider what they care about. And hopefully

my decision is a win win proposition, right, that we both

come up on top right, as much as possible, right, that's the

third pillar. The fourth one is what I call reality factors. So

there are certain things in our decision making that is not up

for discussion. They just exist in our world, things like the

sun will come up at a certain hour, the sun will set at a

certain hour, right? My salary is fixed at this number, and how

do I make a decision regarding those reality factors. Sometimes

I use the example of gravity, right? Like you don't have to,

like gravity, understand gravity. But gravity will still

affect your life, regardless of what you think or feel about it.

So that's what I call a reality factor or factors. And

last year, we all had this crazy COVID crisis,

which was the reality which descended on all of us that we

had two new reality we had to deal with. So sorry to interrupt

you. But I just think that the that your reality doesn't always

stay static is what I'm trying to say.

That's right. It's not always up to you, right? What

reality factors are at play? And so when we consider these four

things, kind of asking that question and kind of jotting

down some ideas as to what is part of my situation, then

we're, we're just more equipped to come up with a few options,

right? Okay, now that I know these things, what are my

choices? Good, bad, the ugly, like, what are my choices? What

are some of the potential consequences. And when we go

through this framework, we just have a new sense of confidence

that we did our due diligence, before we made a decision. And

for a lot of people, especially those who are more reactionary,

more impulsive, just the fact that they slow down to work

through the framework. Darry be 80% of the odds of making a bad

decision, just the fact that he sat down and thought through,

okay, what is it that I really want to do? And why do I want to

do this? That's a huge victory for those who make decisions on

a whim. So well, that that's, that's the framework. Yeah, in a

nutshell,

let's talk about application of it for a second.

What I mean by that is, if that's the framework, tell us

about, I'd like to hear a good news story about how the app

your process has been applied to somebody's life. And something

has happened that has helped transform them from being stuck

to make a decision that's led them to a better place.

I actually, when I was in the process of writing the

book, I decided to use the framework directly with a

client, just to see how the client would respond. And would

it help, in this case, her work through this dilemma? So I'll

share her story and kind of how we use the framework. Sure. So

let's let's give you some context. She is a single mom of

a few children, but most of them are grown. So she she takes care

of her 16 year old daughter, and she came across a dilemma where

her other daughter, who's probably in her mid 20s, was

wanting to come back home to visit her visit the six year old

daughter. But the problem was, the older daughter is in the

adult industry, if you want to call it that. And you know,

there's some concerns about that influence of her lifestyle on

the 16 year old daughter. Now, my client, the single mom, she

she wants the daughters to have a relationship or the sisters

right says just have a relationship. But her ex husband

doesn't write her ex husband's like, I don't agree with her

lifestyle. She's a bad influence. I don't think she

should come over what do you do? Right? What What does this mom

do in this situation? So there you go. That's the situation,

let's use a framework to help this mom along in coming up with

a decision that works for her. So, oh, and the other thing, the

daughter that the little sister, I guess, also wants to feed her

older sister as well, but it's almost like this. Mom, don't

tell dad. If she comes like, you know, it's a really

a lot of layers of this, isn't there? Yes.

Yeah, yeah. So we'll just use that as an example. So

um, so I come in, and I'm like, Alright, you want to try out

this framework? Right? Let's, let's see if we can use a

framework to help you choose better. She's like, shoot, yeah,

I'm stuck. I don't know what I should be doing. Let's use the

framework. So I asked her. So let's start with the feelings

like what kind of feelings come up for you about this situation.

And so what she told me was, the first one definitely was your

anxiety because her ex husband's abusive, so she did not want to

trigger that kind of situation. As I said, I definitely feel

fear that I'll get caught. If I were to let my daughters

reunite. I feel angry, that I'm put in this position in the

first place. Like, I don't know why I'm stuck in the middle of

having to make this call. So I'm pretty mad, that the fact that

I'm feeling this way. And she's like, and I feel kind of sad,

actually, that there's this wedge just kind of barrier

between my two daughters, I want them to have a relationship.

Like, okay, cool. So you kind of understand the feelings. And I

was like, Alright, let's, and we kind of know why or why she

feels this way. Now we move to the next sector. I was like,

Well, what values are in place? Like, what? What matters to you

about the situation? And as you can probably tell, already, he

wants the sisters to have a relationship, right? So she

goes, if you were to ask me, I want, like, what I care about is

my family has a healthy relationship with each other,

regardless of what kind of lifestyle she she chooses to

live in. It should not take away from my daughter's having a

relationship. And so so that was really clear her mind, she goes

that that's really important to me. Yes, I don't want the

consequences of what my ex husband may do. But if we're

talking about what I value, that's what I value. Sure, on

some level, she values being non confrontational, not having

conflict, she has some level of value about that. But when she

were to rank the values, she was like, yeah, having my daughters

have a relationship is more important to me. Great. All

right. Part three values of others. What do other people

care about in this situation? Well, I know where my two

daughters Stan, they both want, they both value their

relationship. So that's pretty clear. And then my ex husband,

clearly what he values is some sort of bad influence that would

happen and therefore he does not want them to be together. Okay,

noted, right? Those are things that are in play reality

factors, some reality factors are they that the sisters have

not seen each other for several years at this point. So that

that's part of the equation. So it's really rare. It's really

rare for the daughter to come home. Another reality factor is

that, based on history, at least the husband, the ex husband's

going to get really mad, probably verbally abusive, all

these types of things like yeah, that's, that's probably part of

the equation. So So those are just a few things, right? I

don't know other reality factors is like, where would they stay?

Well, her house is big enough. So that's, that's good. She has

a room to stay, that's fine. The older sister is not going to

stay that long. It's just going to be for for a week, at most,

maybe a weekend. Okay, so then I was like, Alright, now that

we've gathered all these data points, all these things that we

want to consider, what are your options? Right, she's, well, One

option is where I was feeling stuck at is I let my daughter's

hang out. But then I have to keep a secret. But I'm actually

not okay with that. Because I don't think I'm doing anything

wrong. I don't know why I have to keep this thing a secret. So

she goes with that is one option. But I don't feel good

about that. She's I could have them just not see each other and

there's no conflict at all. But then it kind of breaks my

younger daughter's heart and my older daughter's heart as well.

And I don't feel good about that either. It kind of goes against

my own values. And then of course, the third one is I do

have them come together. And I let my ex husband know, just

right out the gates, hey, I have my daughter on my week, I can

choose what I want to do with with them. And of course,

there's some fear, some anxiety about about making that

decision. But what was crazy about the whole process is as

she went through the framework, there was a newfound confidence

because she knew this is what truly mattered to her. And as a

mom, she wanted to protect her daughter, and she wanted to live

a life of integrity. So that was probably another value that came

up in our conversation. She's like, I don't want to have to

lie about any of this. So fast forward. That's exactly what she

did. And the consequences. Were not nearly as devastating as

that she thought she would I think the ex husband huffed and

puffed and wasn't happy about it. But the fact that she was so

I guess deliberate in making this decision, which is not like

her, by the way, she's normally very kind of wishy washy,

avoidance, right. But that was the best decision for her

about to better, it goes back to the fear thing we

talked about kind of originally, in my opinion that, you know,

once you face the fear, the the anxiety of the indecision, can

tear you up just as much as whatever facing whatever the

consequences of the decision are, even if, in this instance,

say the ex husband went off, Ed still might have been even, but

still better than this whole thing lingering on forever. So

so well, well, well done, well done in terms of cc in some

practical application. And I could just see how this process

can be helpful for people who have have had adversity in their

life. And they need to find some way to channel that and to come

out to a better place. So how can people find out more about

you about your framework, about your book and about your work

and just just tell us, Tim, about how people can be in

contact with you learn more about what you're about and get

your book, definitely. So they can go on my professional

website, which is just my name, www

dot 10 yen.com. And I have a link there where you can

purchase the book on Amazon. And of course, you can just go on

Amazon and type choose better, you can buy yourself a copy,

which will give you a lot more details as to how you can

implement the framework into your own life. Again, I also do

coaching and run workshops, that sort of thing. So I can help

companies with decision making, if that's something of interest,

either as an individual to be coached, or some some help with

companies or teams. They can also shoot me a contact on my

website. Again, it's Timmy and calm. And then on the bottom, I

have a bunch of social media links that you can follow me in

the work that I do, you know, on Instagram, which is choose

better consulting, that's the handle a few other outlets

on your site. There's lots of helpful helpful

resources there. And you've been helpful to our audience here

today, Tim, and we appreciate you being our guest. Again, the

book is choose better, the optimal decision making

framework. He blogs at Tim yen.com. Our guest today on

beyond adversity. Dr. Timothy yen, thanks for being our guest